1 00:00:05,339 --> 00:00:06,857 Hi, thanks for joining us. 2 00:00:06,857 --> 00:00:09,493 My name is Amber Jacobson and we're coming to you live today 3 00:00:09,493 --> 00:00:12,162 from NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, 4 00:00:12,162 --> 00:00:15,082 here on Cyber Monday - a day when pretty much everybody is 5 00:00:15,082 --> 00:00:16,833 online to do their holiday shopping. 6 00:00:16,833 --> 00:00:19,369 So while you're online today, we wanted to talk to you a little 7 00:00:19,369 --> 00:00:20,671 bit about the Internet. 8 00:00:20,671 --> 00:00:22,706 In an interplanetary sense. 9 00:00:22,706 --> 00:00:25,959 NASA's working on building an interplanetary Internet that 10 00:00:25,959 --> 00:00:28,145 will allow satellites to communicate, no matter where 11 00:00:28,145 --> 00:00:30,113 they might be in the solar system. 12 00:00:30,113 --> 00:00:32,883 The technology that enables this is something called Disruption 13 00:00:32,883 --> 00:00:35,936 Tolerant Networking, and we recently used it to connect 14 00:00:35,936 --> 00:00:38,188 Antarctica with the International Space Station. 15 00:00:38,188 --> 00:00:40,507 We're going to be taking your questions live today throughout 16 00:00:40,507 --> 00:00:43,961 the broadcast, so be sure to leave them in the comments 17 00:00:43,961 --> 00:00:44,628 below. 18 00:00:44,628 --> 00:00:48,332 Joining me today is Space Communications Architect, Dave 19 00:00:48,332 --> 00:00:50,951 Israel to help break down this technology a little bit more for 20 00:00:50,951 --> 00:00:51,618 us. 21 00:00:51,618 --> 00:00:52,286 How are you doing today Dave? 22 00:00:52,286 --> 00:00:53,620 Great, happy to be here. 23 00:00:53,620 --> 00:00:54,288 Awesome. 24 00:00:54,288 --> 00:00:57,858 So Dave, 'space communications architect' sounds like a really 25 00:00:57,858 --> 00:00:59,076 cool title. 26 00:00:59,076 --> 00:01:01,595 What exactly do you do and how does that play into Disruption 27 00:01:01,595 --> 00:01:03,046 Tolerant Networking? 28 00:01:03,046 --> 00:01:04,414 Well it is a really cool job. 29 00:01:04,414 --> 00:01:08,318 I get to, I actually get paid to spend my day thinking about how 30 00:01:08,318 --> 00:01:12,472 future missions and astronauts, as we explore the solar system 31 00:01:12,472 --> 00:01:16,994 and beyond, can communicate back to Earth or even with each other 32 00:01:16,994 --> 00:01:19,129 and to do it in a networked fashion. 33 00:01:19,129 --> 00:01:23,133 What we've seen over the last several decades is that the 34 00:01:23,133 --> 00:01:27,487 Internet has changed the way that we communicate amongst the 35 00:01:27,487 --> 00:01:29,389 things and people. 36 00:01:29,389 --> 00:01:31,975 And really enabled a lot to happen and we want to take that 37 00:01:31,975 --> 00:01:35,562 power of networking and extend it into space. 38 00:01:35,562 --> 00:01:37,698 Okay, so let's start this off the right way with some 39 00:01:37,698 --> 00:01:39,166 questions from the audience. 40 00:01:39,166 --> 00:01:41,485 We're taking your questions live in the comments section so 41 00:01:41,485 --> 00:01:44,204 please be sure to leave them below. 42 00:01:44,204 --> 00:01:47,057 Ashley wants to know: How do missions currently get their 43 00:01:47,057 --> 00:01:47,841 data back to Earth? 44 00:01:47,841 --> 00:01:53,297 Okay, so missions that are flying now either can send their 45 00:01:53,297 --> 00:01:55,682 data directly to a ground station - those places on Earth 46 00:01:55,682 --> 00:01:59,052 with big antennas - or in the case of the International Space 47 00:01:59,052 --> 00:02:02,939 Station, they can transmit up to relay satellites, so here's a 48 00:02:02,939 --> 00:02:05,692 Tracking and Data Relay satellite in geosynchronous 49 00:02:05,692 --> 00:02:09,680 orbit, that then will receive the data from the space station 50 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,165 on this high gain antenna in this case and then it has 51 00:02:12,165 --> 00:02:15,736 another antenna that will transmit the signal back down to 52 00:02:15,736 --> 00:02:18,672 White Sands, New Mexico, where we have ground station. 53 00:02:18,672 --> 00:02:21,725 And from White Sands, New Mexico, then that's how the data 54 00:02:21,725 --> 00:02:24,778 will then get sent to where it's supposed to go. 55 00:02:24,778 --> 00:02:29,116 But the way we do things today uh - is very scheduled and 56 00:02:29,116 --> 00:02:29,783 preplanned. 57 00:02:29,783 --> 00:02:32,569 So, for example, if two weeks ago or more than two weeks ago 58 00:02:32,569 --> 00:02:37,724 you had to call somebody up and say well on Monday - Cyber 59 00:02:37,724 --> 00:02:40,193 Monday - I want to get up in the morning and first thing in the 60 00:02:40,193 --> 00:02:42,896 morning I want to check on how the football game went and want 61 00:02:42,896 --> 00:02:46,433 to check my email, and then at lunch time that day I want to go 62 00:02:46,433 --> 00:02:49,353 and shop for something, I got to get something for my son, gotta 63 00:02:49,353 --> 00:02:50,487 get something for my wife. 64 00:02:50,487 --> 00:02:54,074 And then at 3 o'clock I'm going to be on Facebook Live and you 65 00:02:54,074 --> 00:02:56,993 had to know exactly when you were going to do it, how much 66 00:02:56,993 --> 00:03:00,347 data was transfer and where you were going to transfer to, then 67 00:03:00,347 --> 00:03:03,800 uh that is analogous to exactly how we operate our missions 68 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:04,468 today. 69 00:03:04,468 --> 00:03:07,304 So it works, but it's not very very scalable. 70 00:03:07,304 --> 00:03:10,290 Okay, so what is Disruption Tolerant Networking and how does 71 00:03:10,290 --> 00:03:11,558 that come into play? 72 00:03:11,558 --> 00:03:14,628 Okay, so, Disruption Tolerant Networking will give us the 73 00:03:14,628 --> 00:03:17,731 advantages of networking but in our space environment. 74 00:03:17,731 --> 00:03:22,669 So, so, here we see a picture illustrating the solar system, 75 00:03:22,669 --> 00:03:24,504 so you see the separation of all the planets. 76 00:03:24,504 --> 00:03:26,073 So, first there's the delay. 77 00:03:26,073 --> 00:03:28,975 There's the great distances our communications travel at the 78 00:03:28,975 --> 00:03:32,212 speed of light, which is fast, but if you were at Mars it would 79 00:03:32,212 --> 00:03:35,949 take 20 minutes uh - to communicate from Earth to Mars, 80 00:03:35,949 --> 00:03:39,236 so to say "hello" and somebody at Mars to say "hello" back 81 00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:40,687 would take 40 minutes round trip. 82 00:03:40,687 --> 00:03:42,522 So, you have that delay. 83 00:03:42,522 --> 00:03:45,592 You don't really want to be communicating in a way that 84 00:03:45,592 --> 00:03:47,461 requires a lot of back-and-forth. 85 00:03:47,461 --> 00:03:51,381 Then we have disruptions from the physical complications of 86 00:03:51,381 --> 00:03:54,835 communicating from space, but also just from our ability to to 87 00:03:54,835 --> 00:03:55,502 make contact. 88 00:03:55,502 --> 00:03:59,589 Here we see a whole bunch of low Earth orbiting satellites. 89 00:03:59,589 --> 00:04:00,957 So, they're orbiting. 90 00:04:00,957 --> 00:04:03,727 You see Earth science missions that are orbiting in a polar 91 00:04:03,727 --> 00:04:04,428 orbit. 92 00:04:04,428 --> 00:04:08,115 When they go over the Antarctica region we have a ground station 93 00:04:08,115 --> 00:04:12,602 in Mcmurdo that can pick up the spacecraft and collect the data. 94 00:04:12,602 --> 00:04:15,956 But the spacecraft might only be in view for eight minutes out of 95 00:04:15,956 --> 00:04:17,607 this whole orbit that takes 90 minutes. 96 00:04:17,607 --> 00:04:21,778 So we get disruptions between the time of when the spacecraft 97 00:04:21,778 --> 00:04:23,613 gathers the data and when it finally has the chance to 98 00:04:23,613 --> 00:04:24,281 communicate. 99 00:04:24,281 --> 00:04:29,503 So, what we have illustrated here are two cases The top is 100 00:04:29,503 --> 00:04:33,056 the current terrestrial Internet style way of communicating and 101 00:04:33,056 --> 00:04:34,708 the bottom is DTN. 102 00:04:34,708 --> 00:04:37,377 So these are two communications paths you see the source on the 103 00:04:37,377 --> 00:04:41,681 left and here's the receiver on the right hand side. 104 00:04:41,681 --> 00:04:44,217 And along this path we have these links between multiple 105 00:04:44,217 --> 00:04:45,068 hops. 106 00:04:45,068 --> 00:04:48,171 And in the case with the IP connection - Internet Protocol 107 00:04:48,171 --> 00:04:52,676 style connection - then if the path is not completely connected 108 00:04:52,676 --> 00:04:55,362 all the way through then the data get dropped and it gets 109 00:04:55,362 --> 00:04:56,179 lost. 110 00:04:56,179 --> 00:04:58,498 In the bottom case where we're using Disruption Tolerant 111 00:04:58,498 --> 00:05:01,568 Networking, see we have the storage at each one of these 112 00:05:01,568 --> 00:05:03,086 nodes along the way. 113 00:05:03,086 --> 00:05:07,591 So, as long as any of the links is available then the data can 114 00:05:07,591 --> 00:05:10,377 go that next hop down, get in storage and when the link 115 00:05:10,377 --> 00:05:13,847 becomes available then the data goes along the way, with the end 116 00:05:13,847 --> 00:05:18,034 result being that we get more data that makes it to the final 117 00:05:18,034 --> 00:05:22,105 destination in the case where we could just take advantage of 118 00:05:22,105 --> 00:05:25,425 each hop then you do in the top case. 119 00:05:25,425 --> 00:05:27,794 So, for those of you just joining us we're talking to you 120 00:05:27,794 --> 00:05:30,347 live today about Disruption Tolerant Networking and how 121 00:05:30,347 --> 00:05:33,700 that's going to enable a solar system wide Internet. 122 00:05:33,700 --> 00:05:36,903 This is - like I said this is a technology that we'll need to be 123 00:05:36,903 --> 00:05:39,623 able to build this solar system wide Internet. 124 00:05:39,623 --> 00:05:42,225 Dave, can you help break that down a little bit more. 125 00:05:42,225 --> 00:05:45,095 Uh - in the spirit of Cyber Monday, we actually have some 126 00:05:45,095 --> 00:05:47,764 packages if you will of data over here. 127 00:05:47,764 --> 00:05:49,766 Can you show me a little bit about how Disruption Tolerant 128 00:05:49,766 --> 00:05:51,034 Networking works? 129 00:05:51,034 --> 00:05:54,321 Okay, so I have there packets of data here and as long as we're 130 00:05:54,321 --> 00:05:57,691 connected then I can just keep passing the data to you and as 131 00:05:57,691 --> 00:06:00,660 long you're there listening and able to receive it at the rate 132 00:06:00,660 --> 00:06:02,512 that I'm passing it to you then everything is fine. 133 00:06:02,512 --> 00:06:06,199 But if I start to send more than you can keep up with or if 134 00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:08,818 you're not paying attention or you're looking at somewhere else 135 00:06:08,818 --> 00:06:10,620 then we get dropped packets. 136 00:06:10,620 --> 00:06:15,875 So the way that we can deal with dropped packets in the DTN sense 137 00:06:15,875 --> 00:06:18,428 is that we put storage in between. 138 00:06:18,428 --> 00:06:20,680 So, here we have the storage. 139 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,216 So now, whether or not you're paying attention or able to 140 00:06:23,216 --> 00:06:26,386 collect to data, then the data packets still make it into 141 00:06:26,386 --> 00:06:27,220 storage. 142 00:06:27,220 --> 00:06:29,889 Or if we have the case where I have the ability to send a lot 143 00:06:29,889 --> 00:06:33,310 of data at once, faster than you can pull it out, then I can put 144 00:06:33,310 --> 00:06:36,313 it all into this intermediate node and then it works its way 145 00:06:36,313 --> 00:06:36,997 down the line. 146 00:06:36,997 --> 00:06:41,668 So, DTN is the same capability, except with multiple hops along 147 00:06:41,668 --> 00:06:43,703 the way and to do it all on an automated fashion. 148 00:06:43,703 --> 00:06:45,705 Okay, so this is kind of like being able to actually have a 149 00:06:45,705 --> 00:06:47,274 mailbox in space, if you will. 150 00:06:47,274 --> 00:06:50,126 I don't necessarily have to be there to sign for my packages as 151 00:06:50,126 --> 00:06:51,378 they come in pretty much. 152 00:06:51,378 --> 00:06:52,045 That's right. 153 00:06:52,045 --> 00:06:54,781 So, for those of you just joining us, we're coming to you 154 00:06:54,781 --> 00:06:57,801 live here on Cyber Monday talking to you a little bit more 155 00:06:57,801 --> 00:07:00,403 about Disruption Tolerant Networking and how that's going 156 00:07:00,403 --> 00:07:04,674 to enable uh - a solar system wide Internet. 157 00:07:04,674 --> 00:07:07,127 We're taking your questions live so be sure to leave them in the 158 00:07:07,127 --> 00:07:11,414 comments below We've our first question here from Sandy. 159 00:07:11,414 --> 00:07:14,668 Sandy wants to know: Cyber is already in space isn't it? 160 00:07:14,668 --> 00:07:20,423 Isn't that how the whole entire space station is run? 161 00:07:20,423 --> 00:07:25,128 So, we do have uh computers and digital communications in space 162 00:07:25,128 --> 00:07:29,432 and the space station is an example of something that does 163 00:07:29,432 --> 00:07:32,719 have on board networks at the time. 164 00:07:32,719 --> 00:07:36,206 But, the way that things are currently operated with very 165 00:07:36,206 --> 00:07:41,478 small exception, is that it is all pre planned and pre scripted 166 00:07:41,478 --> 00:07:44,898 So, we can get the data from where it originates to where we 167 00:07:44,898 --> 00:07:49,069 want it to go, but it requires a lot more people involved and 168 00:07:49,069 --> 00:07:53,106 planning then what you're Internet connection currently 169 00:07:53,106 --> 00:07:53,773 has. 170 00:07:53,773 --> 00:07:56,910 Okay, we have another question from Paula, she wants to know 171 00:07:56,910 --> 00:07:58,445 when will this be operational? 172 00:07:58,445 --> 00:08:01,881 When will Disruption Tolerant Networking be operational? 173 00:08:01,881 --> 00:08:05,568 So, it is operational already on board the International Space 174 00:08:05,568 --> 00:08:09,172 Station, as of last year. 175 00:08:09,172 --> 00:08:12,759 Previously to that we've done various demonstrations. 176 00:08:12,759 --> 00:08:15,829 So, we did demonstrations from deep space on the Deep Impact 177 00:08:15,829 --> 00:08:19,466 Mission and also from some Earth science missions as a 178 00:08:19,466 --> 00:08:20,817 demonstration and also through laser comm links to and from the 179 00:08:20,817 --> 00:08:21,484 Moon as a demonstration. 180 00:08:21,484 --> 00:08:22,819 But our first operational case is from the space station, on 181 00:08:22,819 --> 00:08:24,170 that same link relayed through TDRS and back down to Earth we 182 00:08:24,170 --> 00:08:25,505 actually are using DTN now and it's in place to provide science 183 00:08:25,505 --> 00:08:26,840 payloads that are on the space station to be able to get their 184 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:27,524 data back. 185 00:08:27,524 --> 00:08:28,858 So, besides the International Space Station has Disruption 186 00:08:28,858 --> 00:08:30,193 Tolerant been used on any other NASA spacecraft? 187 00:08:30,193 --> 00:08:31,544 So, we did those previous demonstrations and we have more 188 00:08:31,544 --> 00:08:32,212 that are planned to launch. 189 00:08:32,212 --> 00:08:33,546 But, but, besides demonstrations the only current operational 190 00:08:33,546 --> 00:08:35,548 case is our space station. 191 00:08:59,572 --> 00:09:01,725 Okay, so, let's take a couple more questions from the 192 00:09:01,725 --> 00:09:02,392 audience. 193 00:09:02,392 --> 00:09:06,312 Ian wants to know: How do you handle encryption with this? 194 00:09:06,312 --> 00:09:11,267 Okay, so encryption can happen at different layers and security 195 00:09:11,267 --> 00:09:12,802 is always a concern. 196 00:09:12,802 --> 00:09:14,137 DTN has a protocol that is called the bundle protocol, 197 00:09:14,137 --> 00:09:15,472 which is really what we were enacting, the bundles of data. 198 00:09:15,472 --> 00:09:16,823 So, one thing that we can do is that we can encrypt the bundles 199 00:09:16,823 --> 00:09:17,490 themselves. 200 00:09:17,490 --> 00:09:19,609 So this would be if somebody actually got into your package 201 00:09:19,609 --> 00:09:21,811 but still wouldn't be able to read it. 202 00:09:21,811 --> 00:09:24,881 But then you can also do encryption at some of the lower 203 00:09:24,881 --> 00:09:26,232 layers that provide that security. 204 00:09:26,232 --> 00:09:29,936 For those of you just joining us, we're talking to you live 205 00:09:29,936 --> 00:09:33,356 today about building an interplanetary Internet and a 206 00:09:33,356 --> 00:09:38,361 technology called Disruption Tolerant Networking, also known 207 00:09:45,535 --> 00:09:48,288 to us as DTN, and how that's going to help build that 208 00:09:48,288 --> 00:09:49,622 Internet. 209 00:09:49,622 --> 00:09:53,460 Uh - we're taking your questions live today, so please be sure to 210 00:09:53,460 --> 00:09:56,596 leave the comments below and we'll get to them. 211 00:09:56,596 --> 00:10:01,284 Dave, you recently tested this technology out from an extremely 212 00:10:01,284 --> 00:10:02,202 remote place. 213 00:10:02,202 --> 00:10:03,720 You tested it out from Antarctica. 214 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,473 Can you tell us a little bit about that? 215 00:10:06,473 --> 00:10:09,976 So here's our crew in Antarctica and they're all been bundled up 216 00:10:09,976 --> 00:10:11,227 in two different ways. 217 00:10:11,227 --> 00:10:14,030 So the first way, you see they're dressed for the weather. 218 00:10:14,030 --> 00:10:17,767 We have the Mcmurdo TDRS relay system at Mcmurdo ground station 219 00:10:17,767 --> 00:10:20,937 down there and this is Mark, Peter and Salem that are down 220 00:10:20,937 --> 00:10:22,989 there to do upgrades. 221 00:10:22,989 --> 00:10:26,376 You see Peter is holding a picture of Vint Cerf - one of 222 00:10:26,376 --> 00:10:30,413 the fathers of the Internet - who's also one of our primary 223 00:10:30,413 --> 00:10:33,733 people working on Disruption Tolerant Networking. 224 00:10:33,733 --> 00:10:35,785 He was supposed to be Antarctica, but wasn't able to 225 00:10:35,785 --> 00:10:36,452 make the trip. 226 00:10:36,452 --> 00:10:39,138 But, his picture was able to make this trip in the photo 227 00:10:39,138 --> 00:10:43,960 bundles that started from the cell phone - Salem here took the 228 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,681 selfie and then from Antarctica then the cell phone generated 229 00:10:48,681 --> 00:10:53,269 the bundles and then we started this journey across the multiple 230 00:10:53,269 --> 00:10:53,937 hops. 231 00:10:53,937 --> 00:10:57,557 So what you see here on the left here is the Antarctica selfie, 232 00:10:57,557 --> 00:10:58,992 and then we had when the camera was in range of a Wifi network 233 00:10:58,992 --> 00:11:00,276 at McMurdo Station then the bundles were able to stop at a 234 00:11:00,276 --> 00:11:01,611 node at our McMurdo TDRS relay system. 235 00:11:01,611 --> 00:11:02,962 When the TDRS link became available, that's our 236 00:11:02,962 --> 00:11:04,297 communications satellite link became available, to McMurdo 237 00:11:04,297 --> 00:11:07,250 then the bundle made its way to our ground station at White 238 00:11:07,250 --> 00:11:08,468 Sands, New Mexico. 239 00:11:08,468 --> 00:11:09,802 From White Sands, New Mexico, the bundles worked themselves to 240 00:11:09,802 --> 00:11:11,154 Marshall Space Flight Center, which is where there's the 241 00:11:11,154 --> 00:11:12,488 network access point to then work it into the TDRS link that 242 00:11:12,488 --> 00:11:13,823 landed on the space station and then allowed us to deliver the 243 00:11:13,823 --> 00:11:14,507 picture. 244 00:11:14,507 --> 00:11:15,842 So what you see here is an astronaut flying into the 245 00:11:15,842 --> 00:11:17,176 picture, which helps to prove this is on the space station 246 00:11:17,176 --> 00:11:17,861 itself. 247 00:11:17,861 --> 00:11:19,195 So the bundle landed on the space station. 248 00:11:19,195 --> 00:11:20,530 There's a payload there called the TReK system that when it 249 00:11:20,530 --> 00:11:21,881 received the bundle it was able to extract the photo and then 250 00:11:21,881 --> 00:11:23,883 display the photo on this laptop here on board the space station. 251 00:11:23,883 --> 00:11:26,936 Is this the only way that NASA's utilizing - uh - Antarctica for 252 00:11:26,936 --> 00:11:27,704 space communications? 253 00:11:27,704 --> 00:11:30,390 Are we utilizing it in another way? 254 00:11:30,390 --> 00:11:34,210 Yeah, so Antarctica - remember that earlier picture with LEO 255 00:11:44,237 --> 00:11:45,572 spacecraft that were flying over the poles. 256 00:11:45,572 --> 00:11:46,906 Being located near either one of the poles gives you a great 257 00:11:46,906 --> 00:11:48,258 location to put a ground station to receive data when those 258 00:11:48,258 --> 00:11:48,925 missions fly over. 259 00:11:48,925 --> 00:11:50,260 So, we have our own McMurdo ground station that can receive 260 00:11:50,260 --> 00:11:52,695 the data as the missions fly over and then we have this 261 00:11:52,695 --> 00:11:55,381 system that we call the McMurdo TDRS relay system which allows 262 00:11:55,381 --> 00:11:58,534 us to get our spacecraft data out of McMurdo and back to the 263 00:11:58,534 --> 00:11:59,202 continental U.S. 264 00:11:59,202 --> 00:12:00,169 and to distribute the data. 265 00:12:00,169 --> 00:12:02,855 But, also at the South Pole the National Science Foundation uses 266 00:12:02,855 --> 00:12:05,775 the NASA system to do a South Pole TDRS Relay, where we're 267 00:12:05,775 --> 00:12:08,928 able to move a lot of science data from the South Pole and 268 00:12:08,928 --> 00:12:10,880 also to provide Internet connectivity for the National 269 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,066 Science Foundation at the South Pole, through our systems. 270 00:12:13,066 --> 00:12:13,800 That's really awesome. 271 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,719 So, for those of you just joining us, we're coming to you 272 00:12:16,719 --> 00:12:20,189 live here on Cyber Monday to talk to you a little bit about 273 00:12:20,189 --> 00:12:25,194 building an interplanetary Internet and the technology that 274 00:12:29,248 --> 00:12:34,253 is going to enable that. 275 00:12:39,042 --> 00:12:44,047 A technology known to us as Disruption Tolerant Networking. 276 00:13:07,704 --> 00:13:10,840 We're taking your questions live, so please be sure to leave 277 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:11,924 them in the comments. 278 00:13:11,924 --> 00:13:15,511 We've got a couple questions here - uh - Dave, Brett wants to 279 00:13:15,511 --> 00:13:19,115 know: Will we be able to Skype people on Mars using this, if 280 00:13:19,115 --> 00:13:21,150 they colonize Mars? 281 00:13:21,150 --> 00:13:24,053 So, you won't exactly be able to Skype. 282 00:13:24,053 --> 00:13:27,256 And there the biggest problem would just be the delay. 283 00:13:27,256 --> 00:13:31,060 So it would be more like sending video messages back-and-forth 284 00:13:31,060 --> 00:13:33,746 because you'll have your video of yourself that you'll try to 285 00:13:33,746 --> 00:13:35,081 send the message out and it may take 10-20 minutes until they 286 00:13:35,081 --> 00:13:35,748 receive it on the other side. 287 00:13:35,748 --> 00:13:37,100 So, it would be so much delay back-and-forth between the two 288 00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:38,434 individuals having the conversation that it would be 289 00:13:38,434 --> 00:13:39,769 much better to have a video message that you send along and 290 00:13:39,769 --> 00:13:41,120 then they'll see it and send a video messages back. 291 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:42,455 Alright, so our next question comes from Neil. 292 00:13:42,455 --> 00:13:43,806 He wants to know: Will Disruption Tolerant Networking 293 00:13:43,806 --> 00:13:45,141 be limited to space to Earth and back communications or will it 294 00:13:45,141 --> 00:13:45,808 be used in everyday life? 295 00:13:45,808 --> 00:13:47,160 So, we're actually looking towards every day life. 296 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:52,165 There's an activity within the IETF - the Internet Engineering 297 00:14:05,945 --> 00:14:10,950 Task Force - which is moving - that's the same body that has 298 00:14:14,754 --> 00:14:18,257 all the standards that control the Internet now. 299 00:14:18,257 --> 00:14:22,795 So under this case um - there's commercial interest and 300 00:14:22,795 --> 00:14:27,817 terrestrial reasons that people are also pursuing DTN. 301 00:14:27,817 --> 00:14:32,605 And where it can really come in handy are for things like remote 302 00:14:32,605 --> 00:14:36,309 sites that can't have complete, continuous coverage or 303 00:14:36,309 --> 00:14:37,910 connectivity to the Internet. 304 00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:40,880 Or in situations where there's some sort of natural disaster or 305 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,067 something that provides a spotty or intermittent connectivity. 306 00:14:44,067 --> 00:14:47,687 Okay, and then our next question that we've got - just a reminder 307 00:14:47,687 --> 00:14:50,006 folks we are taking your questions live here so please be 308 00:14:50,006 --> 00:14:52,075 sure to leave them in the comments below. 309 00:14:52,075 --> 00:14:54,010 Our next question comes from Gregoria. 310 00:14:54,010 --> 00:14:57,480 He wants to know if Disruption Tolerant Networking is based on 311 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,333 Internet Protocol technology? 312 00:15:00,333 --> 00:15:06,189 So, it started with just taking the advantages that we've seen 313 00:15:06,189 --> 00:15:11,210 of the Internet Protocol - and that's how Vint Cerf became 314 00:15:11,210 --> 00:15:15,448 involved - but because of the challenges that are scenarios 315 00:15:15,448 --> 00:15:17,884 for space users so much different than what the Internet 316 00:15:17,884 --> 00:15:18,734 was designed for. 317 00:15:18,734 --> 00:15:23,389 So, again the IP technology requires these hops along the 318 00:15:23,389 --> 00:15:26,609 way to have the ability to send the - uh - messages 319 00:15:26,609 --> 00:15:30,997 back-and-forth with short delays and also for that sender and the 320 00:15:30,997 --> 00:15:34,650 receiver to be connected at the same time all the way through if 321 00:15:34,650 --> 00:15:36,502 you wanted to send a message. 322 00:15:36,502 --> 00:15:38,921 So, DTN got its start by as the Internet was taking off and we 323 00:15:38,921 --> 00:15:42,341 were looking at 'Hey, this Internet stuff is great how do 324 00:15:42,341 --> 00:15:47,864 use this for our space missions,' then we started to 325 00:15:47,864 --> 00:15:53,202 identify the challenges that space missions face and had to 326 00:15:53,202 --> 00:15:56,205 start to develop these new protocols that actually in 327 00:15:56,205 --> 00:15:58,524 conjunction and in same cases over top of the existing 328 00:15:58,524 --> 00:16:00,626 Internet protocol. 329 00:16:00,626 --> 00:16:03,863 So, our next question comes from Kyle. 330 00:16:03,863 --> 00:16:06,983 He wants to know: Do you have to wait for a satellite to be in 331 00:16:06,983 --> 00:16:08,401 the right spot for this? 332 00:16:08,401 --> 00:16:09,819 If so, how will this be faster? 333 00:16:09,819 --> 00:16:14,473 Okay, so, the satellite has to be in the right spot in order 334 00:16:14,473 --> 00:16:19,328 for the link to happen - for that communications link to 335 00:16:19,328 --> 00:16:22,849 happen - but how this makes the communications faster is that 336 00:16:22,849 --> 00:16:27,737 the satellite can transmit its data when it comes into view of 337 00:16:27,737 --> 00:16:28,421 its next hop. 338 00:16:28,421 --> 00:16:31,557 Either it gets time on the relay or the Earth is in view or the 339 00:16:31,557 --> 00:16:33,042 ground station is in view. 340 00:16:33,042 --> 00:16:35,878 And then whether or not anything else is available further down 341 00:16:35,878 --> 00:16:37,213 the line won't effect the scheduling of that particular 342 00:16:37,213 --> 00:16:37,897 satellite's link. 343 00:16:37,897 --> 00:16:39,232 So, it can just get the data further down the line anytime 344 00:16:39,232 --> 00:16:43,603 the link is available and all of the successive hops are able to 345 00:16:43,603 --> 00:16:48,608 take advantage of the same thing, which is how that earlier 346 00:16:52,061 --> 00:16:57,250 graphic was demonstrating the files starting to pile up faster 347 00:16:57,250 --> 00:16:58,484 on the right hand side. 348 00:16:58,484 --> 00:16:59,969 Okay. 349 00:16:59,969 --> 00:17:03,322 Just a reminder we are here on Cyber Monday talking to you live 350 00:17:03,322 --> 00:17:06,025 about Disruption Tolerant Networking and how that's going 351 00:17:06,025 --> 00:17:09,862 to enable an interplanetary Internet and make communicating 352 00:17:09,862 --> 00:17:12,265 with satellites, anywhere in the solar system, a lot more 353 00:17:12,265 --> 00:17:14,150 reliable. 354 00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:16,569 We are taking your questions live so please be sure to leave 355 00:17:16,569 --> 00:17:17,570 them in the comments below. 356 00:17:17,570 --> 00:17:19,772 Our next question comes from Paul. 357 00:17:19,772 --> 00:17:23,226 He wants know: Won't we have large servers on other planets 358 00:17:23,226 --> 00:17:24,043 to make this work? 359 00:17:24,043 --> 00:17:26,579 So, yes - we hope so! 360 00:17:26,579 --> 00:17:31,918 But what we really need is the network to connect all these 361 00:17:31,918 --> 00:17:36,489 large servers together and for everything to connect with each 362 00:17:36,489 --> 00:17:37,156 other. 363 00:17:37,156 --> 00:17:39,308 What's really been enabling all the things we've been 364 00:17:39,308 --> 00:17:45,348 experiencing on Earth with the Cloud and systems being able to 365 00:17:45,348 --> 00:17:49,135 exchange data is the power of networking that allows anything 366 00:17:49,135 --> 00:17:51,671 that's connected to the network to be able to exchange 367 00:17:51,671 --> 00:17:53,489 information with anything else that's connected to the 368 00:17:53,489 --> 00:17:55,358 networking, including servers. 369 00:17:55,358 --> 00:17:57,843 And, because we're hoping that some of these servers are going 370 00:17:57,843 --> 00:18:01,297 to be on other planets, we need to have some interplanetary 371 00:18:01,297 --> 00:18:04,467 Internet kind of thing in order to make that happen. 372 00:18:04,467 --> 00:18:06,152 So, next question. 373 00:18:06,152 --> 00:18:08,688 We currently have rovers that are on Mars right now, right? 374 00:18:08,688 --> 00:18:09,355 Right. 375 00:18:09,355 --> 00:18:12,258 How can a technology like Disruption Tolerant Networking 376 00:18:12,258 --> 00:18:14,894 benefit those rovers on Mars? 377 00:18:14,894 --> 00:18:17,930 Okay, so the rovers that are currently on Mars are sending 378 00:18:17,930 --> 00:18:21,167 their data in the same store and forward manner. 379 00:18:21,167 --> 00:18:23,235 They're on the surface of Mars, an orbiter is in place or flies 380 00:18:23,235 --> 00:18:25,154 overhead and the rover is able to transmit its data to the 381 00:18:25,154 --> 00:18:27,423 orbiter, the orbiter gets time on the Deep Space Network and 382 00:18:27,423 --> 00:18:29,692 then it sends the data down. 383 00:18:29,692 --> 00:18:31,160 So it's fundamentally the same thing. 384 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,846 The change that we're describing here and that we're putting into 385 00:18:33,846 --> 00:18:37,900 place is to make it so that it happens in an automated fashion 386 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:42,305 and it doesn't require all that pre planning and scheduling in 387 00:18:42,305 --> 00:18:43,873 order to make it work. 388 00:18:43,873 --> 00:18:48,878 So right now when we have this limited number of orbiters and 389 00:18:53,633 --> 00:18:59,588 rovers then it takes quite a bit of work, but it is achievable. 390 00:18:59,588 --> 00:19:02,775 As things scale up the way that we hope they do in the future, 391 00:19:02,775 --> 00:19:05,394 it really wouldn't be possible without being able to automate 392 00:19:05,394 --> 00:19:06,062 these things. 393 00:19:06,062 --> 00:19:08,397 Okay, so you mentioned the Deep Space Network. 394 00:19:08,397 --> 00:19:11,000 NASA, I know, has a couple of different space communications 395 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:11,667 networks. 396 00:19:11,667 --> 00:19:13,002 Can you talk a little bit about them? 397 00:19:13,002 --> 00:19:15,271 And how does - how will Disruption Tolerant Networking 398 00:19:15,271 --> 00:19:17,373 help those networks out? 399 00:19:17,373 --> 00:19:21,827 Sure, so there's the Space Network which is the TDRS - uh 400 00:19:21,827 --> 00:19:23,863 so here you see the TDRS satellites. 401 00:19:23,863 --> 00:19:26,215 So these are those relay satellites that we saw in the 402 00:19:26,215 --> 00:19:27,950 earlier video. 403 00:19:27,950 --> 00:19:32,555 So, Disruption Tolerant Networking would help in this 404 00:19:32,555 --> 00:19:36,826 case because the missions will not - do not always have full 405 00:19:36,826 --> 00:19:38,944 time access to the TDRS links. 406 00:19:38,944 --> 00:19:41,263 So they would be able to store the data and then when they have 407 00:19:41,263 --> 00:19:43,499 the link, then they could relay it through the TDRS. 408 00:19:43,499 --> 00:19:46,635 And then that Mcmurdo ground station that I mentioned is a 409 00:19:46,635 --> 00:19:50,056 station that is part of our Near Earth Network. 410 00:19:50,056 --> 00:19:55,061 Now one of the other things that happened to us is a mission 411 00:19:55,061 --> 00:19:57,863 could get a short period of time to send its data either through 412 00:19:57,863 --> 00:20:01,300 the relay or to the Earth and they'll send the data at a 413 00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:02,702 really high rate. 414 00:20:02,702 --> 00:20:05,388 But the scientist doesn't necessarily need that data in 415 00:20:05,388 --> 00:20:06,055 real time. 416 00:20:06,055 --> 00:20:09,842 So, DTN allows us, just like that box, allows us to hold the 417 00:20:09,842 --> 00:20:13,612 data fill it up fast from the spacecraft and then pull it out 418 00:20:13,612 --> 00:20:15,131 at the slower rate. 419 00:20:15,131 --> 00:20:16,949 Okay, so funny that you mentioned the box. 420 00:20:16,949 --> 00:20:20,186 I'm actually getting a request also to try and do our little 421 00:20:20,186 --> 00:20:22,888 demonstration that we did earlier over again. 422 00:20:22,888 --> 00:20:24,723 So, you want to go ahead and do that again? 423 00:20:24,723 --> 00:20:25,391 Sure. 424 00:20:25,391 --> 00:20:27,343 We made a mess here guys. 425 00:20:27,343 --> 00:20:32,214 We've got a bunch of envelopes - in the spirit of Cyber Monday 426 00:20:32,214 --> 00:20:36,435 we're here talking to you live about building a solar system 427 00:20:36,435 --> 00:20:39,121 wide Internet and the technology that's going to enable that is 428 00:20:39,121 --> 00:20:40,890 Disruption Tolerant Networking. 429 00:20:40,890 --> 00:20:43,242 We did a demonstration earlier, we're going to do it over again 430 00:20:43,242 --> 00:20:45,561 about how the technology works, just breaking it down a little 431 00:20:45,561 --> 00:20:46,712 bit further for folks. 432 00:20:46,712 --> 00:20:49,548 So, Dave you have a stack of envelopes other there, basically 433 00:20:49,548 --> 00:20:51,834 packages of data, essentially. 434 00:20:51,834 --> 00:20:54,420 And I believe you're going to start handing me some of those. 435 00:20:54,420 --> 00:20:58,607 Okay, so I'm trying to send this data to Amber and we can just 436 00:20:58,607 --> 00:21:00,976 think of this as maybe there's multiple hops in-between, but 437 00:21:00,976 --> 00:21:03,362 they're all connected at the same time. 438 00:21:03,362 --> 00:21:07,249 So, as the source of the data I can just send it to Amber and as 439 00:21:07,249 --> 00:21:09,452 long she is able to take them and the speed I am handing them 440 00:21:09,452 --> 00:21:11,770 to her and we have the connection and she's paying 441 00:21:11,770 --> 00:21:13,272 attention then everything goes fine. 442 00:21:13,272 --> 00:21:16,976 But, if I start passing them to her at a rate faster, or she's 443 00:21:16,976 --> 00:21:21,897 not paying attention then we have dropped packets or data 444 00:21:21,897 --> 00:21:22,565 loss. 445 00:21:22,565 --> 00:21:27,503 So, where the box came in is that the box is this storage at 446 00:21:27,503 --> 00:21:30,089 each of these intermediate hops along the way so now, no matter 447 00:21:30,089 --> 00:21:33,776 what Amber is doing as long as I'm in the view of the box then 448 00:21:33,776 --> 00:21:37,096 I can just pass the data in at whatever pace I want to. 449 00:21:37,096 --> 00:21:38,447 And then when the path - the link - to Amber becomes 450 00:21:38,447 --> 00:21:39,782 available then she just pulls the data out at her convenience. 451 00:21:39,782 --> 00:21:41,116 Okay, so we're talking to you live here on Cyber Monday about 452 00:21:41,116 --> 00:21:42,468 Disruption Tolerant Networking and how that's going to help us 453 00:21:42,468 --> 00:21:43,802 build an interplanetary Internet. 454 00:21:43,802 --> 00:21:48,808 We're taking your questions live, so please be sure to leave 455 00:21:59,051 --> 00:21:59,718 them in the comments below. 456 00:21:59,718 --> 00:22:02,705 We've got a question from Dia. 457 00:22:02,705 --> 00:22:05,791 She wants to know: Will this help create a better tracking 458 00:22:05,791 --> 00:22:07,793 system? 459 00:22:08,594 --> 00:22:13,983 It will, in that it will enable us to uh - again in a more 460 00:22:13,983 --> 00:22:17,570 automated fashion and automation in general leads to more 461 00:22:17,570 --> 00:22:18,387 efficiency. 462 00:22:18,387 --> 00:22:21,941 Which from - and I'm interpreting the question - as 463 00:22:21,941 --> 00:22:25,160 tracking system as our data communications system that it 464 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:30,182 will enable us to be able to fully make the most of every 465 00:22:30,182 --> 00:22:31,784 pass that a satellite has. 466 00:22:31,784 --> 00:22:35,271 So when it comes into view then we can get as much data as 467 00:22:35,271 --> 00:22:38,691 possible during every contact that satellite or spacecraft may 468 00:22:38,691 --> 00:22:39,375 have. 469 00:22:39,375 --> 00:22:40,125 Okay, alright. 470 00:22:40,125 --> 00:22:43,679 So, it sounds like Disruption Tolerant Networking is going to 471 00:22:43,679 --> 00:22:48,017 be something that's going to be really great for our different 472 00:22:48,017 --> 00:22:48,817 space missions. 473 00:22:48,817 --> 00:22:52,371 Does it have any benefits for here on Earth? 474 00:22:52,371 --> 00:22:53,556 Yes, it does. 475 00:22:53,556 --> 00:22:56,325 So, we saw the example from Antarctica. 476 00:22:56,325 --> 00:22:59,712 So we actually are looking at this technology and working with 477 00:22:59,712 --> 00:23:02,581 the National Science Foundation for these types of remote field 478 00:23:02,581 --> 00:23:06,702 science expeditions where a scientist may go out into the 479 00:23:06,702 --> 00:23:09,722 field and be collecting data, but they're collecting data that 480 00:23:09,722 --> 00:23:13,042 maybe they want to send back to their university or to wherever, 481 00:23:13,042 --> 00:23:15,995 but they don't have network connection at that time. 482 00:23:15,995 --> 00:23:20,232 So, they can collect the data, start it on its way and then 483 00:23:20,232 --> 00:23:24,520 once they get back into view of the network or they get network 484 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,623 connectivity then the data can move along to that next hop. 485 00:23:27,623 --> 00:23:32,628 The same situation could apply in a case where there is some 486 00:23:32,628 --> 00:23:35,481 natural disaster or something happened. 487 00:23:35,481 --> 00:23:38,517 Maybe it was a place that had great network connectivity, but 488 00:23:38,517 --> 00:23:43,539 now it doesn't and DTN could be used to maximize the use of 489 00:23:43,539 --> 00:23:45,224 whatever limited infastructure is there. 490 00:23:45,224 --> 00:23:48,744 Okay, so if you're just joining us we're coming to you live from 491 00:23:48,744 --> 00:23:51,263 NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, 492 00:23:51,263 --> 00:23:53,265 talking to you a little bit today about building an 493 00:23:53,265 --> 00:23:55,801 interplanetary Internet and the technology that's going to 494 00:23:55,801 --> 00:23:58,487 enable that, something called Disruption Tolerant Networking. 495 00:23:58,487 --> 00:24:00,572 And it's going to make communicating with satellites 496 00:24:00,572 --> 00:24:03,142 wherever they might be in the solar system definitely more 497 00:24:03,142 --> 00:24:04,393 reliable. 498 00:24:04,393 --> 00:24:07,663 We have a couple of questions that - we're taking questions 499 00:24:07,663 --> 00:24:09,431 live right now so be sure to leave your questions in the 500 00:24:09,431 --> 00:24:12,651 comments - but we've got a question here. 501 00:24:12,651 --> 00:24:16,138 Danny wants to know: What future missions will this technology be 502 00:24:16,138 --> 00:24:16,805 used on? 503 00:24:16,805 --> 00:24:22,761 Okay, so near term there is going to be the CubeSat with the 504 00:24:22,761 --> 00:24:24,830 name of Lunar IceCube. 505 00:24:24,830 --> 00:24:28,734 That's going to launch with the EM1 Orion mission, that's going 506 00:24:28,734 --> 00:24:30,486 to be using DTN. 507 00:24:30,486 --> 00:24:33,739 There's a demonstration on a Korean Pathfinder mission that's 508 00:24:33,739 --> 00:24:36,875 scheduled to launch. 509 00:24:36,875 --> 00:24:40,663 And then there's other missions that we've been working on, but 510 00:24:40,663 --> 00:24:42,514 it is too soon to sort of announce. 511 00:24:42,514 --> 00:24:46,535 We're planning to put it into our exploration missions and our 512 00:24:46,535 --> 00:24:49,988 future science missions. 513 00:24:49,988 --> 00:24:51,924 We have another question from Adam. 514 00:24:51,924 --> 00:24:55,027 He wants to know: How much on board storage does this require 515 00:24:55,027 --> 00:24:57,746 and how do you budget for it? 516 00:24:57,746 --> 00:24:58,981 That's a good question. 517 00:24:58,981 --> 00:25:02,935 So the amount of storage required is really situation 518 00:25:02,935 --> 00:25:04,269 dependent. 519 00:25:04,269 --> 00:25:07,439 So what needs to be worked out is this understanding of how 520 00:25:07,439 --> 00:25:11,360 fast is the data going to be coming in? 521 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:13,529 How soon will you be able to get rid of it? 522 00:25:13,529 --> 00:25:17,232 And then you need to have enough storage so that you don't lose 523 00:25:17,232 --> 00:25:18,300 the data. 524 00:25:18,300 --> 00:25:24,139 One way I like to imagine it is if you had one of those cases 525 00:25:24,139 --> 00:25:27,893 where you had like a bucket with a spout on the bottom that lets 526 00:25:27,893 --> 00:25:30,813 the water out at a certain rate and then you have water pouring 527 00:25:30,813 --> 00:25:33,232 into the top then it's based on the rates of those two 528 00:25:33,232 --> 00:25:37,202 connections how big of a bucket you need so that none of the 529 00:25:37,202 --> 00:25:38,203 water spills out. 530 00:25:38,203 --> 00:25:40,873 It's that kind of problem. 531 00:25:40,873 --> 00:25:42,858 We have another question that's coming from Kyle. 532 00:25:42,858 --> 00:25:45,994 He wants to know: Will this help with GPS and being able to find 533 00:25:45,994 --> 00:25:47,996 things better? 534 00:25:48,881 --> 00:25:51,350 Probably not directly with GPS. 535 00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:52,785 The ability of position knowledge is something that 536 00:25:52,785 --> 00:25:54,136 would kind of help with the planning and scheduling. 537 00:25:54,136 --> 00:25:55,471 DTN itself does not directly impact GPS. 538 00:25:55,471 --> 00:25:56,822 So we have time for one more question. 539 00:25:56,822 --> 00:25:58,674 The question is: What is NASA vision for the future of this 540 00:25:58,674 --> 00:25:59,341 technology? 541 00:25:59,341 --> 00:26:04,279 Okay, so our plan is as we start to continue our exploration 542 00:26:18,627 --> 00:26:23,866 missions and expand out into cases where now there's more 543 00:26:23,866 --> 00:26:26,435 commercial applications and international partners is to 544 00:26:26,435 --> 00:26:27,770 build out this interplanetary Internet, this solar system 545 00:26:27,770 --> 00:26:28,437 Internet. 546 00:26:28,437 --> 00:26:29,788 And the way we would do that is to have future missions launch 547 00:26:29,788 --> 00:26:31,123 with the software and the storage and the standards in 548 00:26:31,123 --> 00:26:32,474 place so that we will slowly be building out this networking 549 00:26:32,474 --> 00:26:37,479 piece by piece and mission by mission. 550 00:26:45,137 --> 00:26:49,842 Thank you so much for joining us here today to talk to us a 551 00:26:49,842 --> 00:26:52,761 little bit about space communications and Disruption 552 00:26:52,761 --> 00:26:53,595 Tolerant Networking. 553 00:26:53,595 --> 00:26:56,932 So you know, this technology Disruption Tolerant Networking, 554 00:26:56,932 --> 00:27:00,619 it's not just an effort being done at Goddard. 555 00:27:00,619 --> 00:27:04,740 It's a partnership between two different NASA programs - NASA's 556 00:27:04,740 --> 00:27:07,226 Space Communications and Navigation as well as NASA's 557 00:27:07,226 --> 00:27:10,762 Advanced Exploration Systems with multiple field centers 558 00:27:10,762 --> 00:27:14,383 across the country participating as well as multiple domestic and 559 00:27:14,383 --> 00:27:16,168 international partners. 560 00:27:16,168 --> 00:27:19,438 If you want to learn more about Disruption Tolerant Networking 561 00:27:19,438 --> 00:27:23,475 we want you to go visit our website: www. 562 00:27:23,475 --> 00:27:30,015 nasa.gov/content/dtn If you go visit there you can learn all 563 00:27:30,015 --> 00:27:32,467 about Disruption Tolerant Networking. 564 00:27:32,467 --> 00:27:35,771 Thank you so much for joining us today and have a happy Cyber 565 00:27:35,771 --> 00:27:37,089 Monday! 566 00:27:37,089 --> 00:27:37,372 Bye.